HHO Systems

[cyborggold]

The big problem with HHO systems is NOT introduction of the gas into the engine. It is nothing more than the fact that the alternator that runs the HHO generator puts a draw on the electrical system that creates the engine to do more work, thereby negating any benefit the addition of HHO would add to the overall system. So... what if we power the HHO generator another way?

I wish I had the financial resources to do this experiment myself, honestly I hate letting my ideas out into the world without having a chance to be the one to test them first. However, it would be selfish of me to sidebar what I believe to be a great idea purely for that reason. I would love to see an open discussion here on ideas we can use to grow an entire system that could eventually be implemented into an average gasoline powered vehicle in order to increase that vehicles fuel economy by the use of HHO gas.

The idea came to me when I was researching new and innovative ways to produce energy, and to be honest HHO was far from my thoughts at the time. There was a kid in NYC that had an idea to generate power using the sound in the subway systems. Then another bright idea came from a young girl down south that developed a new type of battery that can be charged in 15 minutes and last theoretically for weeks. Then I started to read about the Seebeck effect where applying heat and cold to a peltier device can generate electricity in small amounts.

I started to research the Seebeck effect just because I thought it was interesting and I came across something that really sparked what I believe to be the solution for HHO. It was an article in a car magazine about BMW ditching the alternator for electrical generation using peltier devices sewn into a sleeve that fit around the vehicles exhaust system to utilize the waste heat and cold airflow under the car. Then the idea hit me, what if instead of replacing the alternator, we use this type of system to draw off of the wasted heat energy every engine produces with an array of peltier devices and add them to the system to power an HHO generator?

This would ironically use thermal energy to circumvent the issues current HHO systems have with conflicting the laws of thermodynamics! It would add very little weight to the vehicle, generate what is essentially free energy for the system, and when combined with a high output HHO generator like the ones made by zero... maybe we can actually make this thing happen after all!

It would require a lot of research into exactly what peltier to use, how many, etc. We would also need to take in to consideration some sort of system similar to that of a solar array to charge a battery that we can draw from for uniform power input into the HHO generator. This is not a cheap solution by any means, but possibly a real one. With gas prices expected to approach or parse $5 per gallon, it might not take that long to recover the costs of adding the system to a vehicle.

The averages are as follows according to my research: Average Fuel Economy - 23.6 mpg. Average miles driven per week - 230. If it adds 20% to the vehicle's fuel economy, the average person would save roughly 32.50 each month. Of course those of us that drive more than the average or have higher than average fuel economy already would save even more. Personally, I would look to save about $50 a month using conservative figures.

Here is what I was thinking the system would look like. I am not an electrical engineer by any means, so if I'm way off the mark, go easy on me, lol. The system would start with an array of peltier devices designed for high heat environments. These devices, depending on temerature limitations, could be placed on the manifold, block, exhaust pipes, cat converter, muffler, header, possibly even with a custom heat sink attached to the radiator return line helping to cool the fluid before it returns to the radiator, or anywhere else there is heat escaping from the system. The peltier devices could then be wired into a charge management system similar to those used by solar panel arrays to take the varying voltage and amperage and leveling them out to charge either a battery, or a capacitor like the ones car audio systems use. Then the battery/cap could supply the proper amount of voltage/amperage to the HHO system, possibly by way of another control device to make sure the power input into the generator would be exactly what the system needs to run optimally at all times, and allow for the system to be started before the vehicle so it can warm up and start production before the engine is hot enough to keep it powered.

There are of course downsides to this idea. It of course it does not really have a small scale testable possibility. If we aren't able to get enough power from the array of devices we may also need to add in a second radiator and pump to the system to liquid cool the peltier devices' "cold" side, which would of course add a lot of cost to the system. I have found that most peltier devices are not able to do well in extremely hot conditions, so the ones we need would likely be expensive, and we would need a lot of them, so cost may be prohibitive if we can't get together as a community and crowd-source funding for the project.

I have ideas for funding, but first I want to get the discussion going in here to see how viable this system is, and get people with specific knowledge on the different parts of this system in here to root out all of the pitfalls so we can get the theory sound before even worrying about investing money into this.

We will be met with a lot of skepticism, we will have opponents to our ideas. Just remember this, there has been no grand idea that has changed the world that has not had opposition. The sun does not revolve around us, the Earth is not flat, flight is not out of our reach, and computers actually have changed the world. Foolish are they who would rather bring down the thinkers than contribute to a solution themselves.

[crewdis]

Your doing it for cars I am looking to replace my furnace been a long cold winter up here in Canada. I am thinking  h-cat in a square steel tube (about four - six inches hss) 2 of the tegs attached to the sides I believe they are about $400 and generate 48 volts each. Use that power to run the hho generator only need about 1 lpm. Take the burner out of an old furnace and blow the air around the h cat. i would keep most of the electronics and exhaust system of the furnace so it would only turn on when the thermostat called for heat. i would also  exhaust the spent gas to outside in case of noxious fumes.

[zero]

As desirable as it is to adapt HHO to cars, many have tried and failed. The main reason is the complex closed loop electronically regulated emission systems. They adjust to "compensate" for the HHO. Better applications have proven to be diesel engines, welding torches, possibly the H-Cat mentioned by crewdis. IMHO.

[icu4dzs]

Surprise!  Zero published this tweet and look what it said in the article!

US experts have found out how to extract carbon dioxide and hydrogen gas from seawater.

What a clever bunch of folks they have in the Navy.  Real Experts on the subject, huh?  Well how long ago did Stan Meyer tell us about this?  In fact, IIRC this was first described by some old farmer in his shop over 50 years ago.  I remember hearing about it when I was in 9th grade and that wasn't all THAT long ago...LOL

[Paul K]

Ok there are heat ranges for peltier devices. Heat differential can be utilized in a lot of plafes but locating them  more directly is best. Heat in engine coolant would be best in a dry well system pipe cutinto top rad hose.more conductive heat transfer is higher output.

[disneyjoe7]

Have you considered a battery to power cell? A battery outside of the car's battery, perhaps recharged with a solar panel.

[cyborggold]

Have you considered a battery to power cell? A battery outside of the car's battery, perhaps recharged with a solar panel.

I actually mentioned this in my post, lol. I'm not sure if a battery or capacitor would work better for this application. I guess it depends on the other components. If you use a capacitor you will get a nice even output to put into the generator, but if you use a battery it will store the collected energy better. This is such a big project it would require a lot of people to really put it together, or a few really talented ones with an array of expertise.

Does anybody recall what the voltage/amperage figures were that work best for HHO generation? There were WAY too many videos made by Zero for me to go back and watch them ALL AGAIN to find the answer, lol. Since my original posting I have made friends with a master electrician, and I would like to put some numbers together and pick his brain about this.

[cyborggold]

As desirable as it is to adapt HHO to cars, many have tried and failed. The main reason is the complex closed loop electronically regulated emission systems. They adjust to "compensate" for the HHO. Better applications have proven to be diesel engines, welding torches, possibly the H-Cat mentioned by crewdis. IMHO.

Somebody somewhere has to have the knowledge to program the computer in a vehicle to compensate for this. I know with some vehicles you can buy programmable logic chips and fine tune engine settings for racing, maybe there is a car/chip combination out there that would allow us to modify the emissions control logic so we can demonstrate our theory! Race cars aren't held up to the same emission control standards as street cars, so there should be something out there that can help us get around this. The real trick will be finding a way to tune the system that will prove HHO addition to increase fuel economy without people saying the economy increase is just because of the logic tweaks.